0:34 / 16:47#davidpakmanshow#russia#ukraine

Ex-KGB Agent Explains What Putin is Doing (Jack Barsky Interview)

Transcript

0:00Speaker 1: It’s great to welcome back to the program today, Jack Barsky, who’s a retired

0:04and reformed ex undercover KGB agent.

0:07Also author of the great book Deep Undercover My Secret Life and Tangled Allegiances as

0:12a KGB Spy in America, which we spoke with him about in some detail last time and which

0:18I’ve read and can recommend to you.

0:20Jack, great to have you back on today.

0:22Speaker 4: Well, I’m delighted to be back.

0:25Speaker 1: So I think one of the things that would be interesting to get your thoughts

0:29on would be that there is so much speculation and pontificating on the sort of psychology

0:36of Putin and what has driven this particular invasion of Ukraine at this particular time.

0:43Everything from illness to a desire to restore the former USSR to its former glory, to everything

0:49in between, has been sort of cited.

0:52How were you kind of thinking about the last few months that have taken place there militarily?

0:57Speaker 4: Well, we were talking about the timing.

1:02He’s an opportunist.

1:04He perceives weakness in the American government, and up until he did the invasion there was

1:12quite a bit of weakness when in Natal, you know, if you remember that this this controversial

1:20action that Donald Trump took when he went to Europe to Naito and told him to pay up

1:25already and pay the the share that they promised because they were underpaying.

1:31And so Putin has never made a secret out of his long term plan as just the West that didn’t

1:37didn’t pay attention to it, didn’t take it seriously as far as the particularly the U.S.

1:44intelligence services were focused on fighting terrorism and pretty much ignored what’s going

1:51on in Russia.

1:52Now, we had a reset with Russia, which was asinine and it didn’t work.

1:58That was under Obama.

2:00And then, you know, and then Trump was, you know, blowing smoke.

2:05But but there wasn’t really a recognition that this is some sort of a real chance that

2:12this is going to blow.

2:15So and it was I forgot when it was, but sometime in the in the late 2000 tends to 2015 or so.

2:24Putin actually openly declared at a conference in Europe where there were heads of state

2:32that his mission is to reinstate a greater Russia, not the Soviet Union.

2:39Mm hmm.

2:40He he is focused on other Slavic speaking people that would eventually include Poland

2:48and the Czech Republic and and a few others.

2:51But but he wants you know, he’s looking at the Russia that Peter the Great ruled that

2:57wasn’t a great country either.

2:58But, you know, it’s Peter the Great is an icon in Russian history.

3:05And and this this is you know, Putin wants to be seen as the success of Peter the great

3:13good like Peter the Great was a six feet seven tall.

3:18Putin is not.

3:21So and and and most recently two years ago there was a an essay was published by Russian

3:31media.

3:33It was published also in English where he quite.

3:36And it was was signed.

3:37And the author is Vladimir Putin.

3:40Whether he’s was to or not, whether or not it was signed.

3:42It was published in his name, where it clearly restated his long term goal.

3:48And so when he invaded Crimea, that was five years ago, I believe.

3:55And the West didn’t didn’t even, you know, sneeze that there was nothing going on.

4:03He said, well, now is the time to to go into Ukraine and expand our reach.

4:09And that’s that’s pretty much my my view on things.

4:12Speaker 1: One of the things that has surprised some is that it appears as though Russia may

4:20have misjudged the degree and the scope of Ukrainian resistance.

4:25And what seems maybe surprising about that is that Russia is known for a quite extensive

4:33intelligence service, KGB, which you’re very much familiar with other departments as well.

4:39What how could something that from the outside, random people were saying, you know, there

4:44might be more resistance than is assumed.

4:46How how could such an extensive intelligence apparatus misjudge that if they did?

4:51Well.

4:52Speaker 4: Okay.

4:53First of all, the entire world misjudged the will of the Ukrainians to fight, because nobody’s

4:59really paying attention.

5:01Nobody’s paying attention to history that there has been a intrinsic hatred of of Russia,

5:09everything Russian coming out of Ukraine.

5:12And one of one of the worst things that actually is still sticking in Ukrainians minds, the

5:20history where Stalin went into Ukraine in the early thirties and and and confiscated

5:29all the grain and over 4 million Ukrainians starved to death.

5:34And that is in the part of the world that is the most fertile period.

5:40This this was because Stalin wanted to force collectivization, so and so.

5:45And and there’s one thing you got you got to understand is if you invade a country where

5:55everybody is a soldier, not just the men, but the women and the children, you will not,

5:59in the long run, win that war.

6:01We found that out in Vietnam.

6:03We found.

6:04Out in Afghanistan.

6:05Okay.

6:06So but with regard to intelligence services, that’s a that’s a very interesting subject.

6:12I, I guarantee you there are undercover agents of the Ukraine in Russia and vice versa.

6:20There’s a lot of misleading going on.

6:22They can because they you Ukrainians are bilingual, almost all of them.

6:28And Russians have no problem learning to speak Ukrainian because it’s just very, very similar.

6:36So you get you get intelligence.

6:38You don’t know if it’s real or it’s from a double agent.

6:41And it goes both ways.

6:44And and the other thing is, assuming that Putin got some decent intelligence, maybe

6:51his his intelligence apparatus, the GRU primarily had the right information.

6:59Did you see that tape where Putin is just treating the head of the SVR, the another

7:08intelligence service?

7:09Like a fourth grader?

7:10Yes.

7:11That guy was shaking in his boots.

7:14So, you know, you may not want to give the boss bad news.

7:18And if you have the courage to do so, the boss may just say, you know, you’re foolish.

7:23Sorry.

7:24So it’s it’s a it’s a very fluid situation there.

7:29And and if the Russians didn’t have the right intelligence, you know, you can’t blame the

7:34CIA either.

7:35Speaker 1: Right.

7:36You know, one of the things that I gathered from reading your book and reading about other

7:47sometimes double agents, former KGB, etc., is that there seems to be a certain level

7:51of paranoia within the apparatus that includes, if I recall correctly, an entire department

7:58that just observes and verifies that KGB agents are not working for some other intelligence

8:06service with that level of paranoia.

8:10What can you deduce about the images, for example, of Putin sitting 40 feet away from

8:18advisors at a table and to talk a little bit about like the psychology of what happens

8:23behind the scenes?

8:25Speaker 4: The paranoia is is inherited.

8:31You know that during the reign of Stalin.

8:38There were periodic purges within the military, within the intelligence services, because

8:43Stalin was the ultimate paranoid individual.

8:49And and so this just became part of the DNA of of the Russian army and and the and and

8:58the intelligence services, because, you know, when the Soviet Union fell apart in the KGB

9:06was dissolved and became three different intelligence services, who trained the new guys?

9:17Who trained the ones that are now in charge?

9:20It’s that it’s the old KGB.

9:23And they had paranoia in their blood.

9:26And in general, the the the the the Russian DNA period.

9:32It has a paranoid gene, and that’s justified.

9:37The Russian state was formed in the Middle Ages, and ever since it came into being and

9:44was always invaded from the north, the Vikings came in from the east, the Mongols from the

9:49West.

9:50That was Napoleon and from the South and was the Turks.

9:52So they were constantly under siege.

9:55And so and that, by the way, that is a platform that or, you know, a history that Putin is

10:04using to tell his people that whatever is wrong with Russia is all it’s the West for

10:12the fault of NATO’s, the fault of the United States.

10:15And the the United States and NATO’s can’t wait to just conquer Russia and and, you know,

10:23kill the Russian spirit and destroy the Russian nation.

10:27And they they have bought it.

10:29They actually have bought it.

10:31And, you know, people have ruminated in public, you know, what?

10:35What would it take to get rid of Vladimir Putin?

10:38You don’t even want to try because you think you get rid of Putin, that Russia will change

10:44the the Russian nation is severely contaminated and and decontamination is a hard thing to

10:52do.

10:53The the allied fat found it out when when they tried to get the Nazi ideology out of

10:59every German brain after World War Two, it took forever and was not in every case successful.

11:04Speaker 1: That’s interesting because while certainly what you say is true, it also seems

11:10as though even within some of Putin’s top generals, they’re not necessarily thrilled

11:16about this incursion into Ukraine.

11:18And to some degree, it does feel to me that if Putin was killed or died, there would not

11:23be the same interest in continuing this that there is from Putin.

11:27You think that it would not change?

11:29Speaker 4: Well, you’re talking about the generals, you know, and this is speculative,

11:34but it seems to make sense to the Russian army has had a lot of losses that weren’t

11:40anticipated.

11:41And so if you’re a general and you’re you’re you’re involved in that invasion, you can

11:48see that the Russian is being weakened to some degree.

11:53Okay.

11:54But, Don, the there are there are enough hawks in the Putin regime underneath Putin to continue

12:06what he started.

12:07And the Russian people will will not get out in the streets and demonstrate and says, stop

12:14this war.

12:15They will not because they know it’s necessary.

12:17You understand also the the whole the whole canard that Russia is fighting Nazis.

12:28It’s partially true.

12:29Speaker 1: And in what sense?

12:31Speaker 4: Yes, sir.

12:33And I give you just one item, one fact that you never heard in the mainstream media.

12:42You know, step on Bandera was no stamp on.

12:45Bandera was a Ukrainian Nazi.

12:48He had a he was a he led a Nazi type movement.

12:53And when Hitler came, he joined Hitler with his troops.

12:58And there were a lot of Ukrainian guards in concentration camps and Ukrainians who participate,

13:06participated in and killing Jews.

13:09Okay.

13:10That’s a historic fact.

13:12So now here comes the interesting afterthought.

13:17Two years ago, it was upon Banderas 100th birthday.

13:22The Ukrainian government issued commemorative stamps to honor him.

13:27Now there has to be some Nazis, right?

13:30And even up in the government.

13:32No, Zelinsky is not a Nazi for sure.

13:37And those Jewish leave the country is is a Nazi country.

13:41But.

13:42But, you see, if you if you want to sell a big lie, if you have a kernel of truth, it’s

13:47so much easier to zoom.

13:49Speaker 1: Jack, how do you see this war concluding?

13:53Because there’s the idea that it will only conclude either when Putin is given an exit

13:59that allows him to save face or he dies.

14:02Speaker 4: It will not stop when he dies.

14:06I’m convinced it will go on for a long time.

14:10It’s a war of attrition.

14:12So far, Zelinski has indicated that he is not going to give an acre of land.

14:18So until unless he is willing to say, okay, I’m going to let go of Donbas, because there’s

14:25still too many Ukrainians dying.

14:28But I, I have a friend who who hails from that region, and he was in an intelligence

14:36in Russia.

14:37And he knows he has a really good understanding of what drives Ukrainians.

14:41They are fighting.

14:43Not for land.

14:44They’re fighting for their freedom and for their very existence as a nation.

14:52And as long as that is, as long as they’re willing to fight to the death, that that whole

14:58war is going to go on for a long time.

15:00And God forbid, even if Russia takes all of Ukraine and occupies it.

15:05You know what?

15:06You’re going to have a guerrilla war like in Vietnam and in Afghanistan.

15:10So there is no at this point, there’s no end in sight.

15:13Speaker 1: So the idea that in three months, as a result of negotiations, this could essentially

15:19come to an end.

15:20You don’t think there’s even a chance of that?

15:22Speaker 4: They’re not talking at all.

15:24Speaker 1: Right.

15:25But I mean, even you just don’t even think that that’s a plausible scenario.

15:28Period.

15:29Speaker 4: Not not not in the near future.

15:31Not not in the next several months.

15:33The the situation in the field would have to change dramatically to go one way or the

15:42other.

15:43Speaker 1: Is there some level of death and destruction for the Russian forces that would

15:48get Putin to say we have to cut our losses and retreat?

15:51Or is that not in his DNA?

15:53Speaker 4: I. And he is on a one way street.

15:57Okay.

15:58And he will he will pulverize the entire country if he can and has to.

16:06Speaker 1: Well, we’ve been speaking with Jacques Barsky.

16:09We’re linking to his book, Retired and Reformed Ex Undercover KGB agent.

16:15Jack, always great speaking with you.

16:17Appreciate your time.

16:18Speaker 4: May I may I just add the fact that there’s also a podcast out there.

16:23It’s called The Agent.

16:24It’s an audio documentary.

16:26It’s very well done.

16:28And if you don’t want to read the whole book, the story is in that podcast.

16:33And it’s it’s also told not just by me, but by a lot of people who are important in my

16:38life.

16:39Speaker 1: That’s a book.

16:40I recommend the book, but the podcast sounds like it’s a way to get a lot a lot of the

16:43same story as well.

16:44Thanks, Jack.

16:45Appreciate it.

16:46Speaker 4: Thank you.

16:47Bye bye.